Talking With The Left

I recently had the misfortune of attempting to converse with a card carrying member of the political left. To set the scene, this person is someone I am aquainted with via a writers group I attend. Prior to the previous election all talk at the group turned to politics. This character assured me that he was a wild partisan along with generalized insults toward myself and our president. So, when I was thinking of a left leaning partisan to debate with he came to mind.

He recently posted on the writing groups list serve advertising his blog. Upon checking it out I found, surprise, surprise that it was a partisan left leaning opinion blog. I'd had the idea of pursuing a left leaning individual to have an ongoing debate which we would could both use as blogging material.

With that in mind I sent him a rough around the edges email trying to start a debate.

It strikes me as a funny thing that those on the left are seemingly incapable of loving this country. They almost immediately fly into raptures about freedom of thought and _expression without any acknowledgment of the fact that they are fellow citizens of this great country. I don't for a second put patriotism next to a particular political party. I simply take note that the second largest at the moment seems to suddenly aquire tourette's whenever the subject is mentioned.

Now, granted, this ain't drawering room english, but I was trying to start a debate. Here's a response --

1) It is complete falsehood to say that "those on the left are seemingly incapable of loving this country".That's absolutely not true. We love this country, infact many would say we love it far more deeply and sincerely than the Right. The things we love about this country are things that the Right seems determined to destroy. Shame on you for that slanderous lie! It sounds like a catch phrase, but it's certainly not true. (In the interest of time I have only included the first paragraph, email me for the whole text if you wish)

Okay, fine, he sort of shrugs his way out of actual argument. My response --

First define "many"?
Secondly, I don't think of that as a "catch phrase" at all. Rather a simple observation. I don't live (though I have) in a small town, Mike. I live in a big city bastion of cerulean hue, and as a conservative I find it instructive to talk to people and attempt to find out thier opinions on things. On average, or to be more truthful, whenever I talk to a person who has the temerity to place themselves on the ideological left, and yes I knew the derivation. They evince no convincing love of country.
Dissent is of course one aspect of patriotism, but, if that's all a person does, if all they "say" is I love my country but make every effort to turn this into another failed Communist state. I will question thier motives and patriotism. And I see a lot of that. What I don't see is the alleged moderate middle, which you asserted passionately you were not a part of before the previous election. What I see and hear, such as your blog, is McBushie Chimp Hitler Halliburton. I reiterate my previous question. Doesn't this seem to lack a certain nuance? What are the ideas of the left, not merely the whining? I enjoy bashing the left as much as the next guy. But all things considered, I am about ideas.
Quick reality test. What does your voter registration card list you as? Any guess what mine says? Independent! And I really mean that. I would vote for a Democrat in a second if the ideas were good. My favorite candidate amongst the last Democratic field was Joe Lieberman. I though he had a lot of good things to say. As opposed to the candidate of shameless opportunity who I rightly ignored after word two as a hack.
As to questioning citizenship. Well, it seems to me those on the left would rather live in a radically different country, a far more European country than I would. I look at Europe and see failure on a scale so grand it takes the breath away. Yet, I often hear about how we need to be terribly concerned about what these weenies think. That we should modify our bahaviour to be more acceptable to them. Well, I call bullshit on that one.
Also, interestingly, I never questioned the right to protest. You inserted that, and perhaps heard that where I didn't say it. A common tactic of the left. To cry discrimination or diminuation of rights, when it hasn't happened. Also, the other reason I mention citizenship and whether or not this is important to the left is again, in my talks with people of this peculiar affliction they seem unable to acknowledge thier mother country in any but the most scathing of terms. If I walked around saying "I HATE MICHAEL FOUNTAIN! I HATE MICHAEL FOUNTAIN! I HATE MICHAEL FOUNTAIN!" And someone said of me, so, you hate Michael Fountain, huh?
Would it make much sense if I then berated them for not understanding that even though my every waking thought was dedicated to your destruction, secretly, deep down inside I really, really liked you?
See, I have a pretty good memory for conversations and I've never been inebriated in your presence. I remember very clearly asking you if you couldn't find something good to say about America. Your response was conditional. You suggested that it would be "okay" if we elected your candidate. So of course this did not happen. "Most" people didn't agree with you. But you love your country, right? That's the thing I find amongst the left, but surprisingly, also amongst the right. If you had carefully read "What does patriotism sound like" it was more an indictment of the right than the left.
As to modern patriotic music. Well, it is being made, "This might be asking an apple tree to produce oranges".
And why would that be, Mike? Because America sucks so bad? Think hard, would you want to hear something good about America? I tend to doubt it.
Anyway, a pleasure as always. I was very sincere in the series of questions I included in the previous missive. If you have any thoughts on those I would love to hear them.
Allow me to say that I really enjoy the opportunity to dabate these issues with you mike. I don't pursue this because I think your dumb. but rather because I know your very smart. I do think your wrong, two very different things I'm sure you'd agree. So thank you for taking the time to hash these things out with me. I don't want to fall into the dangerous morass of only talking to like minded folk, it's all to easy to do.

By the way, the series of questions went soundly unanswered. The Left responds --

What do I think? I think that by impugning my love of country again and again, in spite of my denial, you have closed what could have been a friendly dialogue.Your premise that the left, blue staters, Democrats,whatever you want to call them, couldn't possibly care about this country as much as YOU do, and I see noreason to be insulted and abused for your mental exercise. Good luck, and I do owe you a beer. Mike

Huh? Do you see even one answer to any of my questions? No, me neither. I find this to be an all too common response to intense questioning among the left I'm sorry to report. Typically, he resorted to dodges and evasions, most people think, how dare you question...

But the fun didn't end there, checking out his blog I found he had posted some of the exchange out of context and called him on it --

I was stunned that you posted your response to my email without any context on your website. Frankly I don't know what your deal is, on your blog you take after Republicans as if it were going out of style, yet when someone questions you you can't handle it?

Wow, color me unimpressed. There were no ad hominem attacks in my emails. I didn't call you names personally, I just perhaps assumed wrongly that you had a bit more intestinal fortitude to stand up for your beliefs. My mistake.

Please don't feel as if you need to respond to this email. I'm sure I managed to insult your tender self once again. I am sorry that you feel unable to handle spirited debate, one hopes you bring a more open mind into your classroom.

With animus toward none,

Oh, yeah, he's a teacher. He responds --

Fair enough, I posted that material on my blog simply because it was easy to copy and paste; I have sincere moved the offending entry. Please feel free to post any of my responses. Brian, no one wants to play cards against a stacked deck. Your emails have contained attacks against my love of country and my very right to have opinions that differ from yours. It is a waste of time torespond to such statements. "Bush basher Michael Fountain, who hates America, kicked a dog today and said ..." When you can admit the fact that the left is motivated by the same love of country as yourself,there might be some point to this exercise. Until then, go back to talking amongst yourselves about how awful we are.

I wish I were a psychologist like Dr. Sanity to really give this the parsing it deserves. I never questioned his ability to have opinions that differed from mine, in fact I was hoping to bring them out in greater detail. Unfortunately, I sense that might have required having an opinion other than "America Sucks". I find the stacked deck reference particularly telling. Debate is not vigorous agreement, Mike, it's vigorous dis-agreement, and I vigorously disagree with Mike. I know this because I have had the alleged pleasure of hearing him hold forth politically, if you'd call it that, and found myself woefully unimpressed. So, in trying to kickstart a tough political conversation I somehow stacked the deck against little Mikie.

My response --

Whoa, Tiger! Allow me to remind you that you operate a wildly partisan political blog, but that's all different I'm sure.

My questions to you Mike were sincere, whether you believe that or not. One of the reasons I wrote you is because we have spoken in the past and for the most part you managed to keep the flecked spittle to a minimum, (the exception being pre-election)

See, the deal to me goes a little like this...You told me in no uncertain terms before the election that you were a wild partisan (your words) and that you pitied me for being a conservative (your words). Now, when I ask some tough questions your response? Nothing! WTF! This is the best you can do?

Also, your taking this rather personal. I referenced 'the left', not 'Michael Fountain' yet, all you hear is 'Michael Fountain'. Why is that? On your website and blog, as I said before, you go after the right with an unrestrained gusto, fine, that's partisan politics. But when I attempt to start a dialogue with you you chicken out and say oh, Brian plays rough.

May I remind you of the 'Flaming Asshole of The Week' category on your blog. This isn't exactly pickin daisies and whistlin if you know what I mean. I was hoping we could build this convrsation into something we could both use in our blogs, ask the tough unrelenting questions that are only asked in the echo chamber of agreement. But, no, you'd rather duck and head back to your back patting adulatory cronies. Shame on you for that!

People on the right have genuine questions about a variety of things to which they don't hear sensible answers. Cindy Sheehan, like it or not, speaks for you right now. Is that okay with you? It wouldn't be to me, but I'm not you.

In your email you say I stack the deck against you. You know, I don't think I did. I think I asked you some really, really hard questions and you didn't like it. I shared our exchange with my wife to get another pespective. I also showed her your blog to give her some perspective on your political predilections and output. She could not uderstand what you were responding too, Mike, she kept saying "Is he reading the same email I am?"

Whether or not you agree with how I did it, I did reach out and ask some questions. I don't feel like you answered even one. Do you feel good about that? Does that make you proud? Could it show a deficiency in your beliefs or values that you'd rather not share with someone as admittedly partisan as myself. This isn't debate Mike, I grew up in an atmosphere of debate and I hoped better of you.

You are of course free to use the exchange on your blog. I was only surprised that you would post without asking. I do intend to post on our exchange and I will send you a link when it's up for your feedback. I actually do strive for fairness.

With disappointment,

To sum up, perhaps it really is a waste of time attempting to talk or reason with those on the left. It pains me to say that, I really enjoy a good debate. Unfortunately those on the left cry foul and then start weeping piteously when you hold thier weak ass positions up to any scrutiny whatsoever.

Your intrepid reporter, braving the fetid left leaning swamps,

Jake